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Lake Parramatta draft POM on exhibition


Blue's picture

By Blue - Posted on 08 September 2011

NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.

Draft Lake Parramatta reserve POM on exhibition.

http://www.lpma.nsw.gov.au/about_crown_land/publ...

A quick look through to me seems very negative with one bit even suggesting a ban of bikes on walking tracks. Regeneration of "excessive informal tracks" is mentioned repeatedly, which is not a bad thing, but the context of these comments to me were saying "lets get rid of those pesky mtn bikes" rather than "lets rationalise the trail network to make it more sustainable". The usual negative perceptions seem to apply.

Second thing that sticks out to me is that there is very little if any acknowledgement of mtn biking as an activity in the reserve let alone something popular enough to need to be catered for. This is despite Lake Parramatta mtn biking obviously being in demand (for anyone with normal functioning eyes anyway) once you get away from the main picnic areas/kiosk/lake.

Last point for mine is that much of the riding in the area is not actually in this reserve but in the The Hills shire councils Seville and Hunts Creek reserves (within which I think the riding tracks are legal??) with a large slab of trail actually on Kings School property. Only a relatively small amount of trail in Lake Parramatta Reserve is part of the loop/network that is regularly ridden as well as Illawaong Drive for access, so an extensive network in Lake Parramatta Reserve itself is not really needed to make for good riding options in the area (I am excluding the track around the lake in that comment as that track seems to have some pretty big issues from a mtn biking perspective, not that I'd know as I've never ridden it).

Anyway, just thought I'd put the draft POM out there and see what people think. I don't know the area nearly as well as many locals and don't know much about trail advocacy so others will probably have more useful input. Either way, sounds like to me access to the reserves tracks might be an issue in the future.

[Mod. moved to Sydney West]

nrthrnben's picture

Are there any local clubs or groups?

If not, drum up support here and on rotor.

Get as many people as possible to support and email a submission in favor of a dedicated mtb network.

Use current examples of networks all over Australia, Man Dam is a nice local one.

Get IMBA Involved, or ask them for assistance.

FOB's picture

An awesome trail area out west, has some great potential in the right hands

Would be a bloody shame if we were no longer allowed to ride, get on the email and support in numbers.

openspace@parracity.nsw.gov.au

ChopStiR's picture

In regards to tracks being in other reserves, I read this;

The draft Plan includes actions for the care, control and management of Lake Parramatta and adjoining reserved lands.

Scottboy's picture

The place should be left alone .. imo , it is because school kids tried too build a jump there that this all started around last school holidays .

B liner's picture

I thought some thing was up!

Parramatta Lake is my local track and several days ago a couple of friends and I were riding there when we came across a couple of people working near the college fence. We were very rudely accosted by an angry woman who told us that the fence into the college had been repaired at the creek to keep people and dogs out while the council conducted a fox control operation. Only after I asked her who she was with did she tell us that she was with council. She was incandescently angry about mountain bikers and told us that us Mtbers had destroyed 5 hectares of bush above the "Ds" which are the little down hill trails closer to the car park.

Later when we went up there to have a look we found that there were two types of destruction. (1) It did look as though the dirt jump mob had been in there and started operations doing their usual unauthorised earth works. (2) Council had destroyed a couple of hundred meters of single track so now only one track leading to "Big D" remains.

My 2 companions were offended by how agro and misguided the council rep was and I had to have my diplomacy running at warp factor 9 while I stood my ground and explained to her how much we enjoyed the park for all it's natural beauty and recreational values including MTB and moreover how other more enlightened municipalities such as Hornsby and Manly had gotten on board with MTB etc.
She was seriously trying to stop our ride and only gave up when I indicated that I knew the alternate route around the college fence.

So chaps - "The writing is on the wall" ; With resistance like that in the local council we have a mission ahead of us just to keep what we already have.

ChopStiR's picture

Link to the council have your say page

http://www.parracity.nsw.gov.au/your_council/new...

Chuck's picture

Check out the old POM too. It states this and might be something you can build on.

"provision for shared pedestrian/bicycle use of Illawong Drive such that it
provides a safe environment for both pedestrian use and a safe cycling
environment for young and novice cyclists;"

and

"improved convenience and safety of cycling access to and within the Reserve,
specifically for Illawong Drive (Refer appendix 10 for map showing location of
Illawong Drive) to provide a safe cycling environment for young and novice
cyclists in a desirable natural setting, and for the provision for bicycle
storage (e.g. individual token-in-slot lockers) within the formal picnic
grounds;"

http://www.parracity.nsw.gov.au/play/sports_and_...

Find out about the "Park Committee" for this Reserve.
http://www.parracity.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pd...

ozgti's picture

Does seem quite negative against mtb. I will certainly be emailing parra council. Would the Western Sydney MTB club be wading in on this one?

flubberghusted's picture

It is worthwhile to get the likes of a public rally going here as mentioned before with the likes of WSMTB and Rotorburn getting involved.
As it was forewarned, it cant be swept under the rug forever with the trails of Lake Parra being "secret" and with the kids building massive jumps and making the D's more technical, it may have well sparked this whole PoM into action.

Cooperation with the Council is required and have just submitted a page long email to them but if it got to the event that they close off the area to bikers, then perhaps a bombardment as done with Manly Dam could be on the cards.

The Councillors relevant to the area and their email addresses are: jfinn@parracity.nsw.gov.au; clim@parracity.nsw.gov.au; pmaitra@parracity.nsw.gov.au; jchedid@parracity.nsw.gov.au; mlack@parracity.nsw.gov.au; mmcdermott@parracity.nsw.gov.au

BUT because, the PoM is still in draft and no closures have been affected, for the meantime just make your submission to openspace@parracity.nsw.gov.au

The upside and downside to this is that the good stuff still lies outside of Lake Parra's jurisdiction, with Seville and Hunts Creek catchment making up some of the better trails as pointed out earlier, including inside the Kings School area. But with the carpark as a meeting point and trail connections goes, losing Lake Parra would be a big blow.

K10's picture

Hi
I'm new here - this is my first post on the forum but ave used the site for a number of years now

I thought I should get involved in this topic as it affect my local area

My local tracks are mainly in Parra Council and I have often thought of approaching them to see if some local bush areas like Lake Parra could be approved for a decent , well designed, built and maintained XC loop, that could then even be used for racing.

However I have not gone any further, as with the lack of a local club (which is another issue) I didn't think a few noisy MTBers had a chance.

It obvious the council don't have any interest in (or knowledge of) MTB riders and all the trackworks (walking tracks) on council land stems from the " Bush Regen" or other community groups who have irreconcilable views on mountain biking

When riding these areas we have received many filthy looks from the people pulling out lantana etc
Many rocks or logs that have been placed to assist mountain bikers in crossing obstacles have been removed or I should say "angrily kicked away"

Comments from the POM prove the point :

"There have been several complaints about mountain bikes using the walking tracks that have not
been constructed to sustainably cater for their use. Bikes should not be permitted on the narrow
walking tracks system due to potential erosion and vegetation impacts."

It doesnt help the cause that some people have built NS and DJ stuff on the upper tracks at the lake and other areas

The comment
"– investigate sustainable mountain bike use"
Is a worry to me

To me the comment "sustainable mountainbike use" implies the following

- A wide path that will allow walkers to be safe from the meanace of bikers
- A flat safe road that no bikers can hurt themselves on as jumps and rocks are dangerous and a liability
- A man made surface like gravel or road base or crushed concrete that wont erode

Council needs to have someone explain to them that MTBers do not want to ride on cycle paths or fire trails
It is the single track and technical riding that attracts us to these areas and without it not many MTBers would bother with the place.

If a shared access track on Illawong Drive is the limit of the councils imagination for mountain biking, then I'm gunna shave my legs and buy a carbon road bike and hold up all the traffic as a protest to the smog producing automotive....oh sorry I got carried away but you know what I mean.

Its is a shame that the people making the decisons have pre-determined ideas about unsafe mountain bikers wrecking everything

Infact I spend a lot of time fixing trails, clearing fallen timber, fixing plants that have been displaced, preventing erosion by rock placements etc

To make this work a committee could to be formed to put forward some views of the mountian biking community to council before its too late
I think talking to the local papers may be a good idea as well

If anyone would like to discuss this further and get together to plan something I would appreciate it I am able to be involved but would need help

ozgti's picture

There's a similar discussion on Rotorburn on this issue.

http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?2...

Is anyone here a member of WSMTB and can let them know?

Scottboy's picture

I & others have been riding there for a while & it is kids that were on school holidays last that did all the building & where we mostly ride is out of walkers way , we stay clear of them & only see them on the fire trail on the way in & out ..

K10's picture

Not sure how interested they would be as i gather they are blue mountains focussed
But I'll email a friend of a friend whos in the club

K10's picture

Just got a reply from my mate

"Have forwarded onto the WSMTB Committee - we have our monthly meeting tomorrow night - so it will be discussed then,"

Hope they can do something to help

I went for a night ride up the Lake last night with my 8yr old son
We noticed that the fence had been repaired at the creek crossing which requires a slight detour
When he asked why they closed the fence I told him thet they were talking about banning bikes from there
He was a bit annoyed about it as he is just starting to enjoy MTBing at the Lake and it looks like being taken away from him

I hope they leave the trail alone that connects Illawong Drive (at the fence/creek) to the tracks in Seville and Hunts Creek reserves
I can understand thet they dont want people riding the Banksia track, She-Oak Track or the Lake Circuit proper which are not conducive to MTB anyway
All we really need them to allow is access to the connecting trails to make it a decent ride rather than a fire trail
If we can achieve that I will be happy

Ray R's picture

Hi all,

We've been made aware of the PoM and the threat to MTB in the Park via a number of sources - thanks all. In these situations it is numbers that count - and the best way to make our opinion known is via short submission. A formal letter is best, or if you don't have the time please email them.

Riders should point out that the best way to avoid the problems perceived in the PoM is to provide sustainable trails - and to work with MTB groups. Banning bicycles on walking trails is not the way to go (p46) - especially when one of their other strategies is to encourage nearby residents to cycle to the Reserve instead of driving. Obviously the see bicycles just as a form of transport, rather than a recreation in itself.

WSMTB will make a submission - and will encourage members to do so as well. BUT I point out to ALL riders that relying on "they should do something about it" is a cop out unless you do something yourself, ie write a letter/email!

regards,
Ray Rice
XC VP WSMTB
xc@wsmtb.com

Nerf Herder's picture
Scottboy's picture

I spoke too you about this about 6 weeks ago #& I didn't think it was going too turn into something like this . I have put my proposal forward & done surveys , it is a wait & see game now ,just because a few young kids tried too do something they enjoy without asking permission and now it is causing dramas for the honest people .

Nerf Herder's picture

75 responses so far Smiling ... be good to get it a little higher ... say 150.

please pass it around to your various riding crews

sellwood's picture

We need to ensure that people are actually submitting something in writing opposing the suggestion of closing mountain bike access to Lake Parramatta.

At the moment we are being lumped together in the same regard as graffitti vandals and firebugs when we are obviously not.

The developments with Golden Jubilee Field (Ku-ring-gai Council), Old Man Valley/Hornsby Park (Hornsby Council, Knapsack Gully (Blue Mountains Council) show that Council will offer facilities to those that ask for them. Manly Dam has been around for quite a while and should be offered as an example of what is also possible.

I'm kicking around some ideas with a few of the other people that ride at the Lake and should have something soon to enable people to submit an e-mail to Parramatta Council.

Unfortunately, we only have until 7 October to voice our opposition and offer our own alternatives, so we need to get everyone voices to be heard as one to get recognition of mountain biking.

Chris

nrthrnben's picture

Just took survey, took 1 min max, easy.

Everyone thats rides in Sydney should take this survey

hawkeye's picture

I don't think so.

I have some *preliminary* stats from the Warringah Council MTB survey that will explode that myth pretty conclusively. Your typical mountain biker is most likely to be:
• Male
• 25-49 age group
• Tertiary educated
• High income earner

sellwood's picture

I think you've misunderstood me - we are not graffitti artists, etc.
The point I'm making is that we are being labelled as environmental vandals, who ride through the bush destroying it, digging jumps, making new trails everywhere, scaring walkers with their off-leash dogs, by the other users of the park who WILL write letters (they've got nothing else to do!).

But try convincing Parramatta Council with a survey that can be very easily faked - I've already contributed twice and I know of others too.
(you want 5,000 fake participants, give me a few hours).

Parramatta Council will take a greater notice of someone contributing an e-mail/letter with name, with address, phone number (no they won't send the TRG or Federal Police around to arrest you) or signature (with name & address) on a petition.

I spoke to Troy Holbrook, the recreation planner at Parramatta Council and he said that they've received quite a few submission so far but only 6 from mountain bikers. Two of of those would have been the friends that I rode with yesterday who have already made a submission.

While we make it easy for some to say "look at me I did my bit for it, I did the survey. Now let's go riding" we will not get the response we need.
Unfortunately we don't have the popularity of Manly Dam and the demographic that you quote.

That same demographic should have the familiarity to have already sent an e-mail or whatever to Parramatta Council but they haven't.
Hopefully they still will but while an easy out has been offered we may have already lost the battle.

I know that I can see that there have been 752 reads of this thread but how many of those are me, just trying to see whether someone has contributed anything yet to NobMob.

And yes I have something else to contribute:
I have e-mailed the HSMBA people who have offered their support and also they have referred this to IMBA.
I have a letter/e-mail template plus a petition form for local bike shops and I have asked my riding colleagues to pass these on to all they know.

Chris

sellwood's picture

The following is an e-mail/letter template for people's use in sending a response to Parramatta Council.
If you want a copy of the petition document, please e-mail me at: sellwood@tpg.com.au
I have also some notes of ideas that we've been kicking around to flesh out a submission if you want that too.

Chris

To Parramatta City Council Date
Troy Holbrook,
PO Box 32, Parramatta NSW 2124.

openspace@parracity.nsw.gov.au

Re - Draft Plan of Management for the Lake Parramatta Reserve

As a regular rider at Lake Parramatta, I support mountain biking there and ask that Parramatta City Council, as part of it’s new Plan of Management, provide authorised off-road cycling trails within the Reserve.

The unauthorised trails are being built because of a lack of proper facilities for mountain biking. The example of Manly Dam came from an original network of unauthorised trails being reduced to a single dedicated cycling trail. This is regularly maintained by Warringah Council with the assistance of volunteers who are avid cyclists.

Another example is the extensive mountain bike trails in the Glenrock State Conservation Area near Newcastle, which is maintained by the National Parks & Wildlife Service and volunteers. This has been a successful trial for the concept of mountain bike facilities within a conservation area and was purpose designed by experts in the field and built specifically to provide technical off-road facilities to the general public.

Sustainable cycling trails can be designed, set up in less sensitive areas in the reserve and maintained to protect the more sensitive bushland areas from damage in the same fashion that properly designed walking trails can protect those same areas.

It is generally agreed amongst the cycling fraternity that the existing walking tracks at Lake Parramatta are not suitable for cycling and these are generally not ridden on.
Should trails be built, there will be no longer any need to ride on them and with suitable signposting, walkers and cyclists would be well separated.

If facilities can be provided for other users of the Reserve such as families, walkers and kayakers, then why not for mountain bike cyclists?

Therefore I ask that the Draft Plan of Management be amended to include provision of a number sustainable off-road cycling tracks.

Thank you

Signature here
Name here
Address here
Phone number here
E-mail address here

hawkeye's picture

Separate, individually-written letters touching on common themes are best.

Petitions are generally given little weight, and only count as a single submission.

Same with cookie-cutter letters, as they smell like a coordinated campaign organised by a single lobbying group. They are discounted in a similar fashion to petitions.

Dicko's picture

Cmon all - only 6 email submissions that is poor.

I have only ridden the area a couple of times, but it is great ! We have so few facilities in Sydney let's not lose another.

If you were like me thinking someone from west of sydney will put a submission in - then dont !!!! Spend 5 mins and send an email thru.

We have said it before numbers count - which is why I have just got off my backside and sent something thru.

D

sellwood's picture

Regrettably the form letters and petitions may be all that we have.
A lot of people assume that someone else will do their bit for them and will excuse it by saying that they don't have the time.

That's why I have been recommending that people at least try to customise them a bit to make them stand out.

Most important of all is the submissions and if possible, for Parramatta Council local riders to make some submissions - they will carry the most weight.
I'm from the Holroyd area and my rates don't count for anything at Parramatta, only that I spend a lot of my time and money in their shops.

Chris

ChopStiR's picture

Sent my submission today.

To whom it may concern,

I believe that Cycling and Mountain Biking has been under looked. Rather than closing access to push bikes, cycling should be encouraged at all levels. From your family with kids riding around the lake to Mountain Bikers looking for that additional challange. Council should work together with community groups to rationalise the existing trails into sustainable shared access trails for Mountain Biking/Bushwalking & Conservation and rehabilitate trails that are not neccesary.

Regards,
Tim Rowe

sellwood's picture

I saw a great idea on Rotorburn - if you send an e-mail, mail in a copy as well.
It will make sure that Parramatta Council gets your submission, especially if you have made some serious effort to discuss the issues.

If you are one of the guys doing a petition, make sure that you keep a photocopy of it (original must go to Council), particularly if you mail it in.
If you've got access to a fax, you can also try faxing an extra copy to them but mark that as "COPY".

If it's possible, drop in your petition to Parramatta Council, that is even more reliable (make sure you get a receipted photocopy from them).

It would be big shame to have your efforts lost - we are seriously risking closure of all the trails at Lake Parramatta.

Make sure that anything mailed in is sent on Thursday 6 October 2011, well before the time shown on the mail box (usually 6pm)
Submissions must arrive or be hand delivered at Parramatta Council before 4:30pm Friday 7 October 2011.

Chris

sellwood's picture

Submission to Parramatta Council by 4:30pm Friday 7 October against trail closures at Lake Parramatta.

That means if your sendinga letter or petition, hand deliver it or post it before last mail on Thursday.

Interesting article in todays SMH:
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/o...

It's a rehash of a Robyn Parker (NSW Envronment Minister) announcement about Bantry Bay but makes all the right noises about offering legal trails to try to stop/lessen the incidence of illegal trails. Important stuff for Lake Parramatta.

hawkeye's picture

Just sent:

Thanks for the opportunity on the draft POM for Lake Parramatta Reserve.

One concern I have is that a major stakeholder group has been entirely left out of this Plan.

There is ample on-the-ground evidence that mountain bike riders are frequent users of many parts of the Reserve, yet no allowance for them has been made in the POM whatsoever.

Local riders inform me that the Reserve has enjoyable mountain bike trails in its own right, and that it also forms an important link to other trails that cross LGA boundaries. I am yet to ride there myself, but expect to visit before the year is out with my teenage son.

As you're aware from the release of the NPWS NSW's Sustainable Mountain Bike Strategy http://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/policies/Cycli... the NSW Government is now taking a whole-of-government approach to the provision of mountain bike trails as a mainstream and rapidly growing unstructured recreation activity that increases visitation to parks and natural areas. Its policy is to be encouraging and facilitating the provision of trails across multiple tenures with multiple land managers, including but not limited to Crown land managed by local government. Activity to date shows it is serious about execution of this policy.

As I see it, this draft POM is significantly out of step with this policy, which is getting extensive media coverage across the state. It is being taken very seriously by Warringah, Ku Ring Gai and Hornsby Councils, among others. Why you would not take mountain bikers into account is therefore somewhat mystifying.

The risk, as I see it for you, is that riders will raise this omission with ministers and bureaucrats, leading to your POM being rejected and you being told to go back and "do it again properly".

This draft should therefore be pulled and active steps taken immediately to engage in an open and open-minded manner with the local mountain biking community in your LGA and beyond. This should be followed by inclusion of the results of these consultations in the new draft POM.

It is crucial that local facilities are provided in a sustainable manner, particularly for the young, who do not have ready access to motorised transport to travel to riding sites outside their area. In an age where the temptation to sit in front of a computer playing games on screen or Facebook is almost overpowering, it is more important than ever to provide the young with exciting and interesting alternatives that get them out into the natural environment and motivate them to exercise. Evidence from around the world indicates that where mountain bike trails are implemented, graffiti vandalism and antisocial behaviour is displaced, and appreciation of environmental values increases. Coed y Brenin in Wales is just one example that comes to mind. Glenrock NSW is another.

As has been shown elsewhere in places like Rotorua NZ, Glenrock NSW, Adelaide Hills, Blue Mountains, NSW and Victorian high country, and elsewhere, these trails can provide utilisation rates equal to or better than established sporting fields at a fraction of the construction and maintenance cost. Not only that, many areas have realised that such trails pull visitors and form a valuable source of tourism income. Victoria's "Dirty Dozen" is one local example. Mount Stromlo's mountain bike trail build budget was reportedly 2% of the rehabilitation spend, yet it apparently accounts for 98% of visitation.

Mountain bikers have a demonstrated track record of volunteering their labour for both construction and maintenance activities, and this should be allowed for in the POM too, following a similar model to that used by most councils for Bush Regeneration groups. This will allow trail implementation and maintenance to be done at a significantly reduced cost, and provide a strong sense of community ownership.

Where required for sustainability and avoidance-of-conflict reasons, there should also be scope within the POM to re-route cycling trails subject to environmental impact assessment. This is important for both the quality of the riding experience and long term sustainability reasons. Most mountain bikers want to ride with the least environmental footprint achievable.

It is part of your mission to encourage and facilitate improvements in exercise rates among the population in your LGA. Facilitating the rapidly growing sport of mountain biking is an easy win, and this POM is a great place to start.

Thanks again for the opportunity to comment and I hope you find this information useful.

Yours faithfully,
Contact details supplied

Chuck's picture

Done. Went a different route, draw on my experience here in the Mountains and urged Council to work through local issues as this appears to be the best long term solution for the community and the environment.

Fatboy's picture

The bride and I sent in our separate submissions today. We are local residents so would hate to have the park closed.

Blue's picture

Submission done here. Happy to help out a bit with anything that comes of this, assuming I am allowed a leave pass as we have a young baby in the house!

Scottboy's picture

congrats we will be there soon any day now just waiting for the drop ..

Chuck's picture

Has anyone received an acknowledgement? I received this back from my read receipt.

"Your message was deleted without being read on Monday, October 10, 2011 9:11:25 AM (GMT+10:00) Canberra, Melbourne, Sydney."

Brian's picture

I haven't had any acknowledgement.

sellwood's picture

All Councils are required to register their incoming e-mails & correspondence into their document management systems (I know, I work for one).

Giving them the benefit of the doubt, I would say that it was more likely registered and your "Return Reciept" option has noted that it was being processed as "Your message was deleted...."

If you are worried about this message, try giving the guy at Parramatta (Troy Holbrook) a call and say that you want to confirm receipt of your submission and then let on on the forum know how you went.

Everyone, please don't all do this at once, otherwise he's likely to get very pissed off (I would).

As to the lack of acknowledgements, if the Council doesn't have an automatic e-mail reply system (to respond that your e-mail has been received), the job of acknowledgement is usually left to the person handling the processing of the submissions some time afterwards (they do that here).

Note that responses to petitions will only be to the person submitting the petition, hence their limited value.

Hopefully soon you'll see something.

Don't worry, you're not the only concerned ones - refer http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?2...

Chris

Brian's picture

I just received acknowledgement of my submission.

hawkeye's picture

I wonder how many he got from mountain bikers?

sellwood's picture

I spoke to Troy Holbrook this morning and wasn't able to get a lot from him but he did confirm about 100 submissions and most were from mountain bikers. Some opposed to mountain bikers were also received.

I've got his manager's number and I'll try to get some specifics from him.
The count of 100 submissions did not included the several petitions that were also sent but I don't know how many names were involved on those.

I will say that despite what some people have said about petitions, they still do count as something and give a weight of numbers of concerned people to the detailed submissions that are received. They're obviously better than someone not doing a submission because they don't have time.

Chris

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