You are hereForums / By Discipline / Mountain (off road) / By Location / Australia / NSW / NSW Trail Advocacy / Meeting report: Warringah Council 14/6/2011 re: trail works
Meeting report: Warringah Council 14/6/2011 re: trail works
A number of nobmob and MWMTB members met Council representatives yesterday morning for a couple of hours at Manly Dam rangers’ office to discuss the mountain bike trail works program currently in progress.
The conversation was quite wide ranging. What follows is the high points:
The contractor has completed most of the IMBA master class and is familiar with both mountain biking trail requirements and Sydney sandstone.
The scope of current works is being driven by the 2008 Gondwana report’s Priority 2 maintenance item list. Council guys acknowledged this report is no longer as current as it could be, and rider consultation will be employed as an input into future maintenance prioritisation.
The nobmob and MWMTB member group has agreed to update against IMBA standards a trail audit previously prepared by Hugh Flower and others, as a tool to inform this prioritisation.
Council representatives were urged to consider the overall picture instead of zeroing in on particular low level details of the IMBA trail construction guides. This bigger view should regard both overall trail flow for a particular trail, and the regional context in which it is located.
The example given was that while many sections of the Manly Dam trail would rate a “black” difficulty level under IMBA standards, in the overall Sydney context it would only rate a 3 to 3.5 out of 6, or beginner to intermediate. This is driven by the terrain of the area, to which riders become accustomed, using longer travel bikes than other regions with less technical natural terrain.
A commitment to ongoing consultation was given by council representatives, although its shape is still a work in progress. A concern expressed by council representatives was to ensure that any structures set up do not lock out users, and that those outside the formal structure still have access to make their views heard.
For nobmobbers interested in the specific trail sections impacted by the current works program, the following areas were mentioned:
Golf Course Singletrack “BBQ patio”
(as it has become known 
)
• Existing soil cover over rock armouring will stay
• Contouring works will be undertaken down the following two technical descents to spill water off trail, along with
• Measures to address water pooling and consequent erosion and safety issues at the bottom of each.
• A suggestion was made by a MWMTB rep with professional expertise in soils that the introduction of clay to the soil mix in the “BBQ Patio” would help maintain soil cohesion over the rock armouring to improve longevity.
The boardwalks on the steep climb following the 3-rock step up technical feature
• Will be replaced as a short term fix.
19th Hole Rock Drop
• A route change coming in to the 19th Hole will be implemented:
* The current straight-ahead exit to the top of the A-line 2 metre drop will be closed and revegetated.
* The trail will veer to the right for the last 15-odd metres of the current boardwalk, exiting near the end of the rock near the top of the current C-line.
* Feedback was provided by riders that an “unfinished” surface presentation is preferred – not a “patio surface”
• Further consultation with rider representatives will occur on site, prior to works beginning in the next week or so. Works in scope intend to address drainage, trail alignment and trail reinforcement issues, including the erosion problems in the landing area at the bottom of 19th Hole that we know has been catching out a lot of beginners, and the transition to the following singletrack.
• What can be done here in this round may be constrained by budget
Cootamundra Drive / Southern Cross Way
• Implementation of swale drain to improve drainage near entrance off Cootamundra
• Removal of melaleuca (weed species tree) just inside trail entrance
• Placement of large rocks to corral riders and discourage trail widening
• Consultation with rider representatives to occur regarding rock placement and trail alignment”
- Login to post comments
- Bookmark & share
It certainly sounds more promising than what has already taken place
I guess my input into the trail would be that they focus on trail longevity and fix some of the drainage issues. It would be great if we could ride the trail soon after it stopped raining and not several months after it has stopped raining.
I guess the only other thing i could say is please dont dumb it down. I know i am only one person but i love it the way it is. It will need some changes to enable it to be sustainable, but lets not go making it to easy.
Otherwise, when do i get my chance to put back in what i have taken from the place and start to help maintaining the trail?
Thanks for writing that up Hawkeye, good to hear what they're planning. Fingers crossed it all works out for the best and the longevity of the track.
I haven't ridden it a lot lately, partly due to the fact that the trail always seems to be getting wider or more erosion appears. Nothing to do with me getting soft
Thanks for the feedback. Probably would have saved a whole lot of grief if they'd done this before starting the current work.
On the issue of trail rating, I'm not quite sure what you are saying. While I know there are standards that generally apply to rating trails as a whole, I think given the variety of track conditions on this track, consideration should be given to rating by sections. Some areas are quite techy and some are on the very easy side of unchallenging. It would be misleading to classify some of the sections like the 19th hole as anything less than black just because local riders are used to it or the overall "vibe" is easier.
Call me ignorant but isn't the better option to have a couple of lines at the technical sections. At a lot of points at MD this is already happening through entropy so I can take one line on my XC HT and the next guy can leap off a tall building on his Reign. That way the less experienced riders can have a line without widening the track and the techy boys can have their fun as well.
The trail rating described in Hawkeyes report references a Sydney based trail rating system that was in a local guide previously available in shops before 2008. I am checking with the author to see if Council can use/review the content. Perhaps we could also post here.
As you suggest there were different ratings for different sections of the trail, 3 to 3.5 being the hardest for this trail. Some areas such as the A-line at the 19th hole have had their landing eroded out and so would now be higher than 3.5. I also don't think the A-line was referenced in the trail guide, the 3.5 may refer to the B and C lines. We also discussed whether signage is needed for different sections.
IMBA ratings are great for consistency between regions. What we were referring to in the discussion with council are the allowances and flexibility in IMBA Guidelines to take into consideration local rider skill level which is generally a result of the type of terrain we are used to riding.
For example Sydney riders are generally more comfortable with rock gardens and small to medium drops off sandstone ledges than counterparts in areas where the trail is more likely to be dirt and tree roots.
What we want to avoid is strict non-contextual use of the standard IMBA rating system during design and maintenance as it may lead to dumbing down unless local conditions are taken into consideration (note that this differs from signage considerations which should be consistent).
Personally, I think we should label things with IMBA rating. Standards are good. Standards that are not 'standard' are not.
Imagine a tourist from overseas comes to visit - don't you think they will appreciate knowing what to expect... whatever that is?
I agree that Sydney trails can be a lot more technical then elsewhere and we really should advertise this to those who may not know the area. Council should be proud to supply a facility that will retain the interest of a broad range of riders through keeping the technical aspects, rather than dumb it down to cater for beginners.
Sure, provide both A & B lines, but please keep the A's and label them appropriately.
Exactly, signage as per IMBA.
And use the flexibility in IMBA Guidelines for local conditions to retain the design elements of a beginner to intermediate technical difficulty track by Sydney standards (compared to 'open' OF single track pre 2008 and parts of RH) rather than dumbing down.
Note that under IMBA Trail Difficulty Ratings, which Council are aware of, obstacles greater than 200mm are rated as Very Difficult and Obstacles greater than 375mm are rated as Extremely Difficult. However these are within easy reach for many local riders, even on an XC hardtail.
The point of the discussion around trail difficulty was to ensure the Council representatives understood why any hint of "dumbing down" the Manly Dam trail is such a sensitive issue for local riders.
Yes, many of the obstacles around the trail would carry black ratings under IMBA guidelines and signing them would be a good idea for a whole range of reasons. But it should not be understood to provide a justification for reducing trail difficulty.
+1 for IMBA ratings. This is an international sport, so the international conventions should be used. Then everyone is playing from the same playbook.
Currently there is almost zero (if not zero) signage around Manly Dam that warns approaching riders of hazards. 19th hole and the golf course rocky sections being outstanding examples. What is so hard about putting up a one red down arrow sign for light hazards, two red down arrows for medium hazards, and three red down arrows for dangerous and/or risky obstacles? Just like you see in dedicated bike parks? Council need to look into this, or something like it. We need to ensure technical sections have a b-line (or c-line if options A and B are very tricky). Dudes are breaking bones around the Dam every week, the least we could do would be to have some warning for new riders.
Plus the state of the trail changes slowly over time. What was safe on your last ride three months ago could now be worn away, eroded or slippery today meaning a potential for injury. I am the last one to advocate dumbing things down, but some level of sensibleness is required here.
Ah, yes. Sometimes the changes aren't that slow. Even if I've ridden it only the previous week, I still take it cautiously on my first lap, treating it as a "sighting in" lap.
People tend to move rocks and other things around - 19th Hole being a case in point. A rock that was in one place forming a handy and safe roll-down last week can have moved somewhere completely different this week! Hopefully the coming contractor works will remove the perceived need for amateur trail fairies.
Thanks for your site research on the water flow issues prior to the meeting Simon.
i also hope they look into the state of the trail again and re assess what really needs to be worked on as there are areas that currently require a lot of work.
I just received an emailed pdf signed by Michael Keelan which reads
'As you indicate in your email some rock paving has been completed on a section of the track adjacent to Wakehurst Parkway. This work will address erosion, drainage and reduce the level of future maintenance in this area.'
The pdf also makes reference to this being apart of an ongoing program started back in 2008. i really do hope this program will be binned and a fresh approach adopted as that section of the track has changed very little in the last 18 months and i have never seen any water pooled up in that area where the patio has been placed.