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Downhill Opening Still a While Away.
Currently the DH is still closed because there are some issues to work through. At this stage we are not sure how long this will take to get done, so all we an ask is to be patient a little longer and don't ride the trail.
In a nutshell, there are some concerns from BMCC, BMORC and other stakeholders in whether some of the features will hold up well enough and be in fact "sustainable". For those of you who have walked the track will probably have noticed these sections where the dry and poor soil of the area hasn't bedded in well enough to form certain features. From a purely rider based perspective we fear that they could fall apart resulting in people diverting and in the end compromising the trail such that rider uptake of it becomes poor. A bad outcome, so we would like it robust from the start.
So council are waiting on a report from IMBA who have done an assessment and are going to suggest what is required to meet their guidelines. We don't know what this contains at this stage, but stay tuned to find out.
We are also discussing whether the existing trail can be reopened again and only the new alignment left closed off so riders can still ride the area.
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Thanks for the update Mark.
Keep up the good work mark
Still not much happening. At this stage IMBA's report is back and they list their concerns. At this stage we don't know what is in that report. However as it is IMBA, we can obviously assume its valid issues to improve the trails sustainability.
So council are still working on the best way to implement these requirements. At this stage it isn't locked down how this will be done.
So basically its still a case of waiting.
Thanks for the update Moggio, I hope they get it sorted soon though.
I'm pretty sure council want it open soon too, I think its fair to say they are pretty much sick of the whole process. However at least what is being assessed now is making sure its as robust a trail that from a rider perspective won't fall apart and from and environmental perspective will be effectively be neutral to the surroundings.
Glad to hear things are moving along Mark. Nice to know IMBA is also helping on the sustainability front.
I wonder if our alignment was deemed more sustainable by IMBA.
Would be good validation that BMORC are consistent with IMBA guidelines and principles so as to counter some of the comments from those opposed that we don't know what we are doing.
Some may know me, some may not.
I've only been a peripheral 'member ' of BMORC, going to a few of the down hill track building days, so I don't have an intimate knowledge of BMORCs relationship / standings with BMCC. I went to one council meeting, and, with that, and the track build days, I assume it's pretty good.
Has BMORC an 'official' relationship with the council?
By this, I mean do they recognise BMORC, and would they consider BMORC as having the potential to be a 'partner' with regards the Knapsack Park trails / Down Hill? I mean this in the way of how many groups 'adopt a trail, highway, monument etc', and are officially sanctioned by the relevant Govt / Council as a Maintenance Partner.
This all may already exist, but, if it doesn't, shouldn't we pursue this sort of agreement? It would represent a considerable saving to the council, in them not having to do (so) much maintenance, with we, the users, being responsible for a goodly part of it. Of course, it would entail that no new routes be done, just maintenance of what has been made. And maintenance will be required, as, like the Old Bathurst Road DHs, this course will see some very heavy usage, once it is opened and 'discovered' by DHers.
I've said all along, that, as I live so very close to the DH / Knapsack, I am very interested in trail maintenance there. It is, indeed, an area that I have ridden in since the early seventies, and I want to see it maintained, taken care of, and Not overly restricted, or lost to us. For the vast, vast part, I have seen very little changes in the trail systems above and on the escarpment at Knapsack, since I was a kid in the 70s. Other than over use (and extra track cutting) by DHers, such as what happened at OBRDH, and, the 4WDers (that really, really tear into things) - we've already had 4WDs turning up the DH from the lower section, near the "Tower Jump", as I call it. A few dirty great big blocking boulders, such as those used at the bridge on Mitchells Pass are needed there.
Can we negotiate a "Trail Adoption / Maintenance agreement / contract with the BMCC? As I've said, I'm up for it, as I'm nearby, I can get to the trails easily / quickly, and I'm on the tail end of my riding life - I'm pretty trashed, but I can make my way down or up the DH course, at my own, snail like pace, to get to areas / sections that will cut up, especially as the course is first used. I've taken care of trails for decades now, but I'm more than ready to do things the way officialdom requires, it's all about crossing the 'T's and dotting the 'I's.
Alleviating BMCC of a fair bit of work and expense, is something that we can offer, I think.
Though, this all may have already been settled on?
Bear.
I'm not critising a great idea here, Bear, But there are major dramas with what you have suggested.
I have see some thing like this suggested few times, thus the long message.
The problem is, there is no organisation called BMORC for council to have a relationship or agreement with.
There is no President, Vice President, Committee, Treasurer, Public Officer (Note, Public Officer, NOT Publicity Officer, two different things) Trustees or constitution.
There is website where a bunch of people communicate.
I have had a fair bit to do with committees over the years and to enter into the agreement you have suggested, BMORC would need to be formalised as an organisation, have monthly Committee Meetings, Monthly "club" meetings so members can vote on committee decisions and Annual General Meetings and minutes would have to kept for all these meetings for three years.(perhaps seven)
It would then need to be audited annually, and I have not met a free auditor yet.
Then the big one would hit..... Public Liability Insurance. Is the non existent organisation called BMORC going to pay it? How, when there are no funds, or even members for that matter, to pay membership fees and there is no bank account with signatorys.
Some people have logged onto a website. They are not members of an organisation.
Is this path that people want to take here? I almost posted this message a few months ago when is was suggested to buy BMORC tools for track work.
If there was going to be a formal agreement with Council all this would be needed and probably be required by Council.
Remember if you maintain a track, you can be held responsible for that track and if someone gets injured and can prove that is was the fault of the track, the maintainer can be held responsible. That is why you will notice that most track maintenance is done by clubs and organisations.
We are OK at the moment because the track is being done under council. If we enter into an agreement with them, it's not.
If people from BMORC try to enter into a formal agreement now, They are putting their houses and property on the line.
If someone has a more legal training than my experience or "bush lawyer" skills, please speak up and prove me wrong. I would happy to be wrong here.
Ken
This is kind of close to the mark.
BMORC at the moment is more of a lobby group rather than anything resembling a club. It is a group of stakeholders helping council, we suggest what riders want and give reasoning but we have no ability to dictate anything or lead any work. This is essentially stated on the front page of the website. Its also a way to have riders have a voice so an unbalanced decision like the closure of OBR can't happen again.
We could become an IMBA club which does provide insurance that would be required, however as stated in the post above there are complexities with this. Obviously running BMORC as a club with all that entails would require money and fees, organisation and lots more time and effort.
At the moment going through the pain of being set up as a club does not provide any advantages. There is not any way within council's current approach to allow for us to do the work independently. We are working to get some accountable independence to do maintenance and works but this is a slow process. Council is currently investigating how to improve how they do all volunteer works programs such as Bushcare, Streamcare, Trail Care etc and we have been involved with this process. Hopefully a useful practical way to get stuff done efficiently for riders and council can be found.
The other problem is that conservationists watch every move riders and council make. They are a very loud voice and basically object to anything that his mtb associated with it, essentially if MTBers are involved its bad. This even goes to stuff like rehabiltation works we have done under 100% council control, where because riders were the labor, there were complaints about the rehab works. This type of idealogical problem also restricts very heavily what council can allow, so the conservations are being effective at this stage of preventing works being done(hi guys!!!
)
So if some scheme can come in such that authorized works are allowed if we became a club then it would become worth doing and it is possible without dire consequences. The main risk then is taking the punt that enough people will get involved with the boring committee stuff and pay some fees for insurance, however if there is a realistic possibility to get some serious trail work done I think lots of riders would rise to the occasion. (Its all too much self flagellation at the moment to really entice riders en masse!)
Are there any updates on this situation? Any speculation on the likely outcome?
Managed to speak to council today.
Essentially now IMBA have pointed out their concerns in their report and BMCS have pointed out their concerns at the site. Essentially the majority of the concerns match pretty much what we also were pointing out. BMCS have some other issues relating to soil management etc that need to be addressed as well.
At this stage Simon from Dirt Art will be up in a week or so and is apparently going to be doing some more work on the track addressing these issues. Things such as rock armouring and methods to combat trail creep with coraling and addressing some of the soil management issues.
After this is done and then I assume signed off, council are hoping to have it opened then probably in around 3 weeks.
There have also been reports of motos riding up and down it ripping things up (makes one wince). This I guess is not surprising with the delays and lack of mtb presence on the trail. With a distinct rider presence and maybe some coraling this can be prevented.
Thanks for the update Mark.
I look forward to being able to update with some better new one day!
as long as it moving Is all we need
Many sporting clubs, bushcare groups, and unassociated community groups are unincorporated, yet still gain publicly funded facilities, proceeds from grant funding, support from multiple levels of government, and often vote in similar ways.
The National Parks Association and other conservation groups are lobbying groups, funded by State Government and other funding sources. They are allocated a budget for lobbying, education, and business administration, amongst other things. They started off as a community group, concerned about protection of public lands prior to the formation of national parks, much like us now IMO. However, to call BMORC a lobbying group is likely overstating our level of funding, political effectiveness, structure and organisation.
To me, BMORC is reflective of the unstructured character of our recreational activity, which isn't unusual given MTB fits under the unstructured recreational activities that council supports.
but what do I know, I'm just an individual in a community group and happy to follow the direction of others.
I'm just an individual in a community group and happy to follow the direction of others.
I thought you were a vandal with a search engine. Good to see you are on the self improvement trail
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Admission is the first step to salvation.
Spoke to council again today and they have been working on the site dealing with some of the issues the conservation society brought up around the track writh respect to vegetation damage etc. They have a bit more work to do with regards to this over the next week as well.
Also Dirt Art will be back this week doing some extra work on armouring sections etc that were brought up by BMORC and some other parties.
So hopefully once these issues are addressed and BMCS are satisfied requirements have been met the trail can be opened in the relatively near future.
They are also looking itno a maintenance program under the supervision of a trail contractor so their expertise can be used to keep the trail running in a sustainable manner.
Nothing of note to report here still... yes I know its a bit of a downer where its like Xmas morning kids but you can't open your presents!
Council are working on the "non-compliance" issues listed on the trail. Then this will have to be checked off with the BMCS and Council's environmental scientist to confirm compliance all round.
Signage is also being worked on such that it can be put up for opening to advise issues as well as safety requirements (ie mtb only on DH).
So really a timetable of this is all a series of question marks. Still we will get there in the end chaps!
You gone grey yet
Just wondering when the Blue Mountains Conservation Society became experts in the track design and building. Council have there own environmental staff and paid contractors for this work.
Its more the BMCS are making sure that the Commonwealth requirements are met and council does what they say. Why because BMCS are the ones that will report breaches to the commonwealth that will open up whole legal issues with the commonwealth for council to then have to deal with. Something council definately don't want to have to deal with from a cost and time perspective. So its obvious who holds the cards here!
On the flip side if the BMCS do eventually agree and sign off on the trail so to speak then it will be environmentally meeting the most stringent requirements and we can be sure that the trail is definately sustainable and environmentally robust.
Not much to update on this at the moment. Still closed and council are still assessing compliance with all the Commonwealth requirements.
Best news is that DirtArt will be returning within the next fortnight to work on issues that BMORC and IMBA pointed out. I am assuming this will be the issues primarily to do with armoring some of those larger dusty berms.
Hopefully next week there should be some more news on the compliance issues.
Hopefully it won't be too much longer.
Its like waiting to open that Christmas present that you know you are getting!!!
Yes but its like not opening it this Xmas, but waiting to open a present the Xmas after next year!
The inactivity is very frustrating.
Its beyond frustrating, its a joke! Typical government body, to much time drinking coffee and procrastinating over what could be fixed in no time. Common councilmen pull you act together.
Being part of an approval process on a few occasions I can definitely see why people by pass the system and build illegally.
I remember the frustration well as we jumped through hoop after hoop for the Pony Express while several illegal trails came into being. They had been ridden lots and often and a few even fell into disuse and regenerated by the time we finally got the OK to start our build.
Kids came into the scene, raced a few years without a official home track and went on to other things before a sod of soil was even turned.
The slow wheels of council approval are mind numbingly, stupendously frustrating and at times I felt that was part of the ploy, Delay them long enough and they'll go away and stop bothering us.
But stick with it. At least you will know that you have done everything right and in the end you will have a track that will stand the scrutiny that is sure to come it's way. One that will last the test of time.
Thanks Flynny, always welcome your words of wisdom and encouragement!
It does make one think about the legit process and how viable it is. In the end I think its an investment for future relationships and projects with the powers that be.
A couple of years jumping hoops for a lifetime of enjoyment using the track. Seems to easy to me.
I have been updated by council that Dirt Art are on site for a couple of days this week addressing IMBA and BMORC concerns. Primarily this involves armouring corners, putting in some corral rocks and general stone work robustness on the corners. Be very nice if things can end up a little more roman road in places.
Next week should be the conservationists walk through followed after by the Council's environmental scientist signing of on the compliance to Commonwealth recommendations. Concurrently signage is being fabricated as well. So if all these sign-offs go well over the next two weeks or so then the signs will just need to be installed (however long that will take I don't know).
So in theory if the planets align and rub our rabbits feet it may not be that far off.
Might be this years Christmas present to us all.
For those that don't check BMORC Facebook Simon French from Dirt Art just posted
"Simon French Hi guys, we are just as keen as you all to see the trail open- maybe more so. We're very excited to get the thing open so all can enjoy it. I just need to clear up some things though;
- The delay in opening is related to conservation groups making noises; it is not related to our build. We maintain that our crew has developed a killer DH trail in probably the most challenging site for such a development in Australia.
- While we are aware of claims regarding sustainability issues, we have maintained all along that there is no issue in this respect. We understand an IMBA audit made some recommendations regarding gradients- we have triple checked everything and can comfortably say that everything meets IMBA guidelines (we have been in discussion with IMBA regarding inaccuracies in their gradient measures). FYI, the average grade along cross contour sections ranges from 9-14% with frequent grade reversals and a 60%+ side slope.
- We finished on site today, with the only remedial works completed being; insertion of one piece of rock armouring filling a small hole (making the trail smoother rather than more sustainable), and stabilising of one rock in a wall. Our other works related to restoring issues created by a third party company who were contracted to undertake works in an environmental context.
- We will be suggesting to council (as we did when we finished last time around) that the trail is absolutely safe, sustainable, and ready to open. We hope that an opening will not be far away now.
Cheers,
Simon
Dirt Art"
Great to hear! Hopefully Council can finally appease the worried parties and we can get this trail opened! Hopefully by the time I'm back from Canada at the end of September it'll all be go!
Well its getting nearer... a few smaller issues to iron out with BMCS that are pretty fair and some details with final IMBA signoff. Besides that basically nearly, almost, just about there.
Also signage is due to be installed within 2 weeks. Signage is one of the items required for the opening so that is very important.
Will have a more detailed expected date after talking to council again early next week.
Hi guys,
Will there be a "rideable" trail that will get you up to the top of the Downhill track?
When the road was closed I would ride up, do a lap around past the water treatments/etc and then downhill to the carpark at the bottom; But it's too dangerous with cars now.
There is a hike-a-bike trail a little bit further to the north of the DH trail. Starts near the steel gate for the powerline access trail next to Mitchell's pass. I believe you know the one Hec as we tried riding down it once. If you want to ride back up and don't mind the extra km. You will need to travel south over Knapsack viaduct. Then up the lapstone zigzag and around the old poo farm. This gets you back to the bottom of Bennett’s. From here you can ride back up the street or cut through Knapsack reserve on the XC trails.
No plans yet but one day we would like to convert the hike-a-bike trail into a more sustainable trail that could be riden up. Presently that old walking track is an erosion nightmare.
Yes, I remember that trail. It was really loose, rocky and stepped out.
I might try the Knapsack viaduct one day.
I was walking along there (from great western hwy carpark to Knapsack Bridge) about a month ago and saw some youngin's riding there bikes down a trail which ended right at the walkway that joggers use, there was some construction bunting and singage and I wondered wether this was the finish of the new trail.
When I rode the downhill, I would get to the powerlines and cross over the road continuing along the powerlines to the carpark.