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New chain prep
NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.
I've just fit a new cassette, freehub and chain and wondered what everyone does with the factory chain grease.
Do you leave it on, degrease it and put your favourite lube on or something different?
Answers below...
Here's a couple of pics of the old chain against the new to show wear.
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Sheldon Brown http://sheldonbrown.com/chains.html says factory lube is the best lube so I've just left mine, I figure it will need degreasing and cleaning again in a ride or two anyway.
I take it off, I have a pot that goes on the BBQ with a mix of candle wax and Rock n Roll Blue that I submerge the chain in. Seems to run smoother for a lot longer than just pouring the Rock n Roll on straight from the bottle.
Got 1500km from an 8spd chain and cassette with probably 10-15 mud rides, the cassette would have lasted longer if I swapped the chain out earlier.
Sounds interesting fairy1, what's your recipe?
I don't degrease - every chain manufacturer recommends against it, you remove the grease from inside the rollers where it's needed and you can't get replacement lube into.
Because it's sticky, I wipe it off with a rag that I've sprayed wd40 on, and apply my lube of choice. Lubing the outside of the chain seems to help mostly with noise but not a lot for longevity ( there have been a few tests of this)
It is very sticky, I dropped it while putting it on and immediately it picked up all dust and crap off the shed floor.
Wiping the outside and lubing with something else sounds like a plan.
When you say don't degrease, do you mean ever or just for the first few rides till the original grease wears out?
I fully degrease mine and then use Squirt lube. My 2011 MTB still has the original chain on it and I recently checked my roadie chain after 5000 km and it has ZERO measurable wear.
Factory lube is ok on road bikes but on a mountain bike it just collects dust and turns into a cutting paste.
I soak mine in a jar of pro gold, Degreases and lubes.
Failing that a bit of kerro then let dry and lube up with finish line Teflon dry.
@PeteB - no, I never degrease a chain. The chain manufacturers specifically warn against it - they say the chains are manufactured with grease in the rollers because you can't get it in adequately after manufacture - so they come fully lubed. The exterior lube however wears off pretty quick, and that what you use lube for.
The best hope is that when using degreasers like kerosene and proprietary products is that they don't penetrate into the interior of the chain - if they do, then chain life is shortened . KMC recomend wiping the chain with a rag with a degreaser on it in order to apply your own lube to the outer surfaces. Chain wear depends on quite a few things like torque provided, amount of chain wrap while being torqued, degree of cross chaining by rider , whether the rider eases off to change gear and what conditions the chain is subjected to
All in all, anecdotal stories from riders is pretty pointless because we and our conditions are all so different ( eg some Newcastle riders will be well aware that killing worth can really damage drive trains fast in the wet compared to other places only a few kms away)- so I just stick with what the various tests in labs have figured out and what the actual manufacturers of the chains recomend.
That will teach me for never reading instructions.
I just assumed they were covered in a rust preventative goo like car discs, etc so I strip it off.
Still if water and dirt can get in there I don't really want sticky goo inside the chain.
I don't understand how you can't get lube back to the inside of the links, running it through a chain cleaner/luber would do it wouldn't it?
If I ride a bit the chain gets wet lubed once a week and comes gets hit with the Park chain cleaner and soaked in lube. But as my 8 speed stuff is so cheap I'm not worried about trying to extract every last km plus it spends loads of time in the top two gears so the angles aren't great for chain life.
Of course lube can get in there, if there is enough clearance for the parts to move there is enough clearance for liquid to get in there.
Interview on bike radar with shimano representative Nick on chains
"
Nick: So that brings us to lubrication. I mentioned that the chain wears because of friction as the chain moves to wrap around a gear. Well, that friction is reduced if there is lube on the chain. If there is dirt mixed in, the lube makes a bigger difference in reducing friction. If there is water mixed in, the lube helps displace the water. The grease that comes on a Shimano chain is applied at the factory to the individual pieces before the chain is assembled. The grease does a better job of reducing friction than aftermarket chain lubes and it lasts longer. The main reason we use liquid chain lube, whether it is one that stays liquid or a dry lube that has a solid lubricant in a liquid carrier (like a PTFE lube) is because we need to get the lube on a part that is not accessible without disassembling the chain. So the best thing to do when installing a new chain is to leave the factory grease on, not apply any other lube, ride until it wears out and then start applying liquid chain lube. In dusty conditions you can wipe off the outside of the new chain with a rag that is wet with a gentle degreaser to keep dirt from sticking to the grease. The factory grease also keeps the chain nice and quiet. After soaking a chain in degreaser and then lubing the chain with liquid lubricant the chain gets noticeably louder."
Pinkbike on the same question
Chain manufacturers do not recommend stripping their factory lubricant. Their lubricant
is incorporated into the chain during the manufacturing process and as a result they
know it has penetrated the pins and rollers assuring proper performance. If the chain
is completely stripped of this lubricant, there is then the question of whether or not the
replacement lube will penetrate the pins and rollers completely. This is quite reasonable
as some replacement lubes penetrate better than others.
KMC - Do not dip your chain in aggressive degreasers , further they say do not use solvent in a chain machine - this will ruin your chain , they even specifically mention they know lube manufacturers recomend degreasing then specifically advise against it
http://www.kmcchain.eu/cms/media/downloads/Chain...
Fairy1, it might be KMC or Sram, but one of them greases the chain by immersing it in high temperature oil to help it get in near the end of the manufacturing process
Given KMC specifically mentions the chain device ( presumably the park tool one) as bad for the chain if a solvent is used, I reckon the opposite would work as well, so clean the chain with mild soap and water, then heat your favourite chain lube a little and put it in a chain cleaning device which might get the lube in better.
Of course with chains been $30 , I just try and keep em clean, lube with dry lube ( I like squirt), and do the most important bit of maintenance - use a ruler and replace them when stretched ( Personally try not to let them get 1/16th long over 12 inches myself - seems too late by then)
Pharmaboy:
"The chain manufacturers specifically warn against it"
That's not my take on it, reading Shimano's service intructions, unless you consider the recommended "appropriate chaincleaner" doesn't include the various degreasers sold for that purpose.
Like Magnum9, I use Squirt dry lube off road. I tried all the other dry lubes and found that they either weren't totally dry (so crap stuck to it) or they weren't very effective in prolonging the life of the chain.
I also disagree with the statement about lube not penetrating inside the chain rollers. It certainly can and it does.
But you are right in pointing out that individual riding conditions may call for drastically different recipes. In dusty or sandy conditions (What I ride in), the original chain grease forms that dreaded cutting paste and stuffs up your chain, chainrings and cassettte in record time (Not just the chain, Fairy1). Wiping the outside doesn't prevent grit fom working its way into the rollers.
So maybe there are situations where that grease is beneficial (No dust, no sand, wet, muddy?) but getting it wrong is expensive...
Perhaps it's worth reminding that the purpose of chain-cleaning is to wash that cutting paste from where it's causing the damage. The higher the viscosity of the lube, the harder it is to disolve, hence the lightness of chain lubricants. And when it comes to re-lubing, the same principle applies, that's why chain lubes possess good capillary properties, so it penetrates where it's needed.
And it has to be done regularly, before the cutting paste gets the better of your drive train.
Of course if you ride in dry conditions, you can use dry lube, in which case it's a matter of simply re-coating your chain. Sorry, forgot a crucial point: But you have to degrease it throuroughly before you can apply the dry lube.
Horses for courses, I guess.
CyclinAl, don't know if you missed my post above, but the shimano claim is from Nick Murdick who is the lead technical guy in the US for shiamno - regularly interviewed for procedures and stuff, but yes I agree the shimano tech docs are a little less enlightening .
I would presume that a solvent (turps, kero, wd40) is worse than a citrus based degreaser for removing the grease. Not to diss you guys, but if someone up the chain in shimano is interviewed on a well known Mtb site and says the grease is put in during manufacturing that's good enough for me, and while Nick from shimano says don't degrease and so do KMC - what could be the benefit of not following their advice?
Yeah that's fair enough but if you open a tub of grease then blow some dirt in it how do you get the dirt out of the tub? You have to remove everything, I could see it working on an O-Ringed moto chain but using a thin lubricant frequently should do the same job.
Also I'm pretty sure the longest lasting chains are the PTFE coated ones which contain no grease, chain lube contains the same stuff.
I will say it takes A LOT of wet lube to quieten the chain down after you degrease it. That's why I went the candle wax/Rock n Roll way and it feels like a new chain every time has that sorta cushioned(?) feel that the factory grease gives it.
There must be a reason moto chains are supplied with one sachet of assembly chain lube to be liberally applied to all parts when joining the chain, otherwise they'd just say squirt whatever crap you got from supercheap on the outside when you're finished. Which would also keep your hands, controls, tools, floor and swing arm cleaner.
Yes I'm aware that o-ring and x-ring chains are designed to seal the roller axles from the outside elements....and after assembly lubes and degreasers.
I also find that riding less increases the calendar life of my MTB chain exponentially.
Fair enough not dipping kmc chains, they need all the help they can get there such ****. Ive just ordered a new xt chain to replace my original kmc and wasn't aware shimano advise against full degreasing. Basically every second or third ride depending on conditions i take the chain off and sometimes cassette and rings off and put it all in a empty bucket and degrease the hell out if it and the black thick gunk that comes off is unreal after a 3rd or 4th hit i dry it and put it back on the bike followed by a very thorough lubing with a drip bottle getting ever single pin and link and my chains lasted incredibly well especially as its a kmc and made of cheese and its still well within the wear indicators.
Very interesting read thou, never knew any of this..
But now the golden question - if you don't degrease how do you clean the chain?
Pharmaboy, actually I did miss your post. We must have been drafting at the same time but you posted before me. Otherwise, my reply would have been more specific.
And that specificity is that while he undoubtedly knows a thing or two about chain lube, Nick Murdick may have been tailoring his recommendations to his audience (Read: particular riding conditions
Because I can tell you that he is welcome to meet me on my turf, with his factory-greased chain and we'll see who comes to a (literally) grinding halt first, him or me.
When he says "In dusty conditions you can wipe off the outside of the new chain with a rag that is wet with a gentle degreaser to keep dirt from sticking to the grease", he fails to aknowledge that, in seriously dusty or sandy conditions, it's not the crap that's stuck to the outside of the chain (ie: the one that you're wiping off) that does the damage. It's the crap inside the links that's grinding your rollers, your chainrings and your cassette to oblivion. And the only thing that'll remove that crap is an appropriate degreaser (I use citrus).
Totally agree: Kero or WD40 are out if only because they will not clean your chain properly (Again, personal experience) and are likely to interfere with the application of the new lube.
So, not having spoken to the bloke, I don't believe it would be right to simply dismiss what he said either.
But to embrace it without considering that it may have been said in a particular context and that context isn't applicable to your situation, will lead to premature drivetrain wear, guaranteed.
Jonathan, get yourself one of them mate.
You'll do a better job and use a minimal amount of degreaser.
I finish off the chainrings and cassette with degreaser in a spray bottle and a stiff long-haired chain cleaning brush.
When you twist your chain and don't get any crunching noises, you know the job is done.
As I read it, generally you would leave the factory grease on, but in Sydney, it's better to degrease it and replace with a dry lube?
It's a bit more complicated Pete B and relies on your appreciation.
The amount of dust and sand your chain picks up most probably varies from trail to trail around Sydney, like everywhere else. It's where you ride predominantly that dictates your chain lubing technique. The same could be said of road riding versus off-road mtbing.
But that also takes into account whether the ground is dry or damp and whether it's raining or not. Dry lubes perform equally well on dry or damp ground but they don't do so well in the rain and in muddy conditions. Wet lubes on the other hand, and including factory grease, will serve you well on damp ground, in the rain and in mud but will kill your chain on dry dusty or sandy ground.
Ideally, if you ride both conditions regularly, you can have two chains, one dry-lubed, one wet-lubed and use a quick link to fit them on. It saves a bit of work prepping your chain for the lube changeover.
It's important to understand that the whole system can still fail if the chain isn't prepped properly or if the lube is applied incorrectly.
Having done my best to offer what I believe is sound advice, based on my own experience, I feel a responsibility to finish the job so no one ends up regretting having taken that advice.
You often see chain lubing done by dribbling the lube on a moving chain. My opinion is that it requires applying the lube to the point of runoff to have any chance of being effective, and even then it may still not penetrate. Not good for the environment, your floor, the rest of your bike or your hip pocket.
I found the most effective way to apply chain lube is to deposit a large drop on each link roller, on the inside of the chain (top of the bottom run).
Once I've done the exposed length of chain between the chainring and the idler pulley, I twist the chain back and forth from the centre. That opens up the gap between link plates and sucks the lube in.
Then, using both hands, I roll each roller between my thumb and index to ensure the lube is penetrating.
When the exposed length of chain is lubed, just bring the next one in position and repeat. The chain takes about 10 minutes to lube this way and the end result shows very little exposed lube and certainly no dripping even though it is lubed to the core.
I know some will consider this process overly involved and by far too fiddly. I guess it boils down to personality and whether you think your time is more precious than your drive train longevity. Either way, that's fine.
One final point, if you use a wax-based dry lube such as Squirt, your chain must be completely degreased for best adherence. Once lubed, your chain should feel stiff.
To test it, I grab a length of chain on the bottom run with two hands and bring them together. If the loose links slump with gravity, it's time to re-lube. if they hold their positions, including upwards, it's all good.