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Hardtail dead?
Hi all, sorry but I need to get something off of my chest...
I have read several "New Bike" & "New frame" forums recently where hard tail frames have all but been dismissed as a thing of the past, contributors usually say something along the lines of:
"I locked out the back end of my (insert name) duallie the other day & it felt shit, "Why would anyone buy a hard tail bike/frame these days"?
Well, if you think that's really all there is to it then I think that you should borrow a reasonable HT & give it a spin around an XC circuit.
Firstly a dual suspension frame is built with the idea that it will be used in full suspension mode for most of the time, additional vertical rear end flex is unwanted (As the suspension does this job) therefore when locked out the frame feels very dead or solid. This is ok when sprinting a flat firetrail or road section but doesn't feel good on anything bumpy. A good hardtail will be designed with some inherent flex to give some shock absorption, often described as "Springiness".
Don't get me wrong, I'm a lover of full suspension & generally pick mine for anything where jumps & rock gardens are included but I also appreciate the simplicity, reliability, lower cost, lower weight & potential performance advantage of a good hard tail frame. In fact I chose to ride my HT at the Jarrahdale 12hr last year because it felt good around that circuit.
Additionally now with the inherent ground smoothing nature of 29" wheels and the high cost of a good after market big wheel frame the HT option is once again a great way to get a competitive bike on a budget.
Thoughts?
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no they aren't dead but considering i can only afford one bike i bought a dually so I'm not as limited as those on ht's and i don't have to worry as much about buckling a rim over those rocky gardens and drop offs. if i could afford another bike yes it probably would be a hard tail just so i could have the choice
I think hardtails are awesome and whenever I have tried a dually it feels as tho I am just pedaling a dead horse around, even with the fancy lockouts and stuff.
But at the same time I don't think most hardtails have much springiness... Just being able to get a good feel of the track and a more lively ride is a big plus.
After floggin a few laps around Turners on Sunday I actually thought a dually might be more fun.... on that track.
HT's have been dead for me ever since I started to get problems in my lower back. Having a dually doesn't provide immunity, but is far less problematic.
After riding my 6" dually solidly since late 2006 I have now not ridden it for 1.5 years.
Built up an AM hardtail and it's making me a better rider and also it's nice to go back to basics and have to work the bike a lot more. This is also making me faster as anytime the suspension is active on a bike it's slowing you down.
With an AM fork you might be surprised how plush a HT is (40mm sag). As on any descent get weight over the bars and ride the fork. Pump the bike and pop over obstacles rather than bashing through them. Don't just hang off the back, plough and then wonder why your front wheel washes in a corner.
Only thing I find is that on drops (eg drop zone, itchy and scratchy) you need to compress legs more. A Crank Brothers Kronolog let's me do this.
This gives me an AM/FR bike, SC Chameleon frame, 160mm 36 TALAS, SLX build, 2.3 tyres with dual ply on the back, 721 rims, 750mm bars that is 12.5kg.
A super fun play bike that can do light DH, spends most of its time at Red Hill and still fun when the fork is dropped on XC at Awaba.
Switch from a 5" dually to a 120mm Forked Banshee Paradox 29er. Best thing I ever did, the bike is half a wheel shorter in wheel base, than the 26" dually, shortest chainstays ever,abit slacker in the headtube, bit lower in the BB. This gives the feeling of sitting in, not on top that most 29ers suffer from. I'm over 40 and ride/race this bike everywhere, Mont, Convict, Willo enduro, Dungog 8hr, Bottlebutt, live on the edge of LNCP the trails are rough and rocky this bike just eats it up and down. I also like the simplicity of the HT, as well.
I think we need some pics of your all mountain hardtails, they are definitely the coolest looking of mountain bikes I think.
Hey Crispy
If you ever fancy trying to build a duallie 29er for places like Turner Hill I would be interested in the project. I can also lend you some bits to complete the build. I've a Fox 190 mm eye to eye pro pedal shock & a 120mm Reba with a 20mm thru axle (Unfortunately taper steerer) plus wheels & some other bits.
I think a basic swingarm design with about 100-120mm of travel and good lateral stiffness would work really well.
Big project but potentially v rewarding.
All the best
Tony
Its on the cards mate, but instead of using a bearing pivot point, a high mount Ti flex plate would make it a bit more unusual and deserving of the prototype build.
Cut down on weight and maintenance....
Only problem is trying to get super short chainstays and decent rear travel, seat tube is always in the way.
Will talk this Sunday at the Trail Maintenance.
Will be another carbon hard tail, this time a 650b with an x fusion 150mm adjustable travel fork. My current carbon ht is the fastest, most fun bike I own but is sadly too small for me for rides of any real duration or anything too techy, I have a tendancy to OTB on it.
How does one OTB when riding along trails like Perimeter Trail??
was actually doing that much riding, not even L & P at the moment.
As for how do you OTB on L & P, I'm not really sure Ben because I never have there but given that you have first hand experience at it
http://nobmob.com/node/964
maybe you could explain it to all of us?
Ben still hasnt improved much from those early days
You guys show no mercy.. lol!
Interesting thread, I'm really interested in the pros and cons of HT vs duallie.
I have a HT (granted its not at the same level as what you guys have, cost me $1k marked down from $1.3k couple of years ago) and everytime I ride it I think "man I wish I could afford a duallie cos then I'll be able to go heaps faster...".
I know that the above thinking is prob very ametuer, but ametuer is what I am! But hoping to get better as I ride more.
I do love riding my bike (its my 2nd MTB), love the way it feels and I guess that has something to do with its geometry etc (rode about 10 diff bikes between the $1.2k-$1.8k rrp range before deciding on this one). But I always wonder how much better a duallie would be?
Now I read that some of you guys prefer a HT? Makes me think I am missing something and that maybe I'm riding incorrectly (which is most likely...). I just find that the rear is sometimes unsettling over bumps, rocks, etc especially in the corners.. Most annoying in the tight twisty slower stuff where I'm trying to pedal and keep some momentum, the front will go over and not worry me but then the rear goes over and unsettles the bike and whatever rythem I'm trying to keep..? Would love to be able to extract the max out my HT.
I've never riden a 'proper' duallie so I guess I cannot compare what exactly their strengths and weeknesses are offroad compared to a HT, just always assumed they be a better ride.
Recently I have done a few events (Kanananangara, Fling, Awaba 8hr thingy, Mont, DW 100) on a HT and I’m really loving the whole back to basics thing that the HT brings, yes I can report that it can be a pain in the ASS (actually is a pain in the ASS if you don’t ride it correctly… ) but once you get used to riding out of the saddle a bit more then there’s not a lot of problems handling that.
Just to throw a curve ball here on where some people would think that a FS bike should be quicker but perhaps is not clearly so; I did many laps ridding 3 different bikes at the Mont; HT29, FS29 and a FS26 (Well.. until that one broke…) and while I felt a lot quicker on the descents (slideshow, beer garden) on the FS29, my descent times actually were faster on the HT29.
At the Dirtworks the HT29 was also respectably quick down Sheppard’s and Jacks, (as fast if not faster than many good riders on FS bikes) and these are places that are some people would tell you that are supposed to be ruled by FS bikes??
But you probably won’t find me up Red Hill on the HT..
I'm no racer, just have a good time so make what you want of my comments.
If your seat isn't too high your legs have way more travel than anything on the market. The remote seatpost I got makes so much sense on a HT.
What's more you can also use them to preload the bike and squash and compress the tyres into the ground. When you release this you can pop the bike and the back end off the ground and float over the roots and rough stuff.
This goes with any bike. The aim is to keep the bike light and float rather than letting the suspension or back end take the hit. That's one of the reasons I'm enjoying riding it. I got lazy on my FS bike. Now I get a kick in the arse when I slack off and am riding better because of it.
The bike also accelerates more when you pump the terrain than a FS bike which absorbs some of your efforts.
In corners, yep the back end can get a little loose at times. However I ride a larger travel fork and ride the front wheel as on DH. I often lift the back end up and plant it sideways in the tight stuff or to get a better line.
On a techy climb then yes you can lose a bit of traction.
On a steep roller going down, yes the head angle doesn't slacken like on a FS where the back end compresses when you get your weight right back. This means you need to get further forward and ride the bike more through the bottom transition so you can lift the front wheel up. When all the way back it's hard to lift the front wheel over the transition so most people roll through it and hope the head angle copes with the transition rather than going over the bars.
So yes, makes a few things harder but good for the skills. It is what it is so ride and enjoy the bike for what it is.
Thanks Simon for your info, and also to Obmal.
Heading out this weekend to give it a try!!
Well said Simon a concise & well thought out reply.
I took my HT 26er out Tuesday for a lap of the Kal circuit after doing the same loop on my duallie Yeti on Sunday at speed & loving it. I fitted big tyres (2.25) and ran progressively lower pressure looking for that sweet spot between grip, comfort & speed.
I enjoyed the loop but ended more knackered and a bit slower.
Pro's: If you're fit & like an engaging & super responsive ride a good HT is great. I felt sharp Tuesday & with a 120mm thru axle front end hit every jump on the trail inc the Lancaster & Mercury St (Still don't do the high logs tho) I had a great time doing the full loop with add ons. Light weight also means zippy acceleration.
Negatives: I'm not always feeling that sharp & the duallie lets me ride through stuff like rock gardens & drop offs where I simply bash my way through rather than picking a clean line through or lofting the rear end thereby saving energy. Also landing jumps badly is smoother. Traction also suffers on the HT when the rear end hops over obstacles whilst climbing.
Conclusion: It depends on you, your preferred riding style & your budget.
Sub $1500 forget about a duallie it'll be a dog although you should be able to pick up a reasonably good HT from around $1000 up.
Good full suspension seems to start around the $2000 mark.
I'm old lazy so need many bikes:-)
http://nobmob.com/node/19622
The guys obvously got some skills.
I can't recommend this style of bike enough. AM/FR HT, super capable, back to basics and great fun.
The bike appears to be a Cromag Gypsy/Stylus. Head angle 67 degrees running a 6" fork.
The geometry is pretty much identical to my SC Chameleon running my 160mm TALAS fork, my head angle may be marginally slacker. Pretty much the same top tube length, chain stays lengths etc. BB similar when you tweak the SC BB to the 6 o'clock position. Note SC's website gives angles etc for shorter travel fork than frame is capable of.
I just need to obviously get better.
A few have been asking to see our FR/AM HT's so here's mine.
there are sections on my local ride where i've never been able to match the max speeds time etc set on my HT now that i've got a duallie. i had dh tubes that were 2mm thick (weighed something like 600gms per end) and big tyres, pressures down to about 18. the big difference is that 12 kays on the old ht set-up feels about the same as 40 on the dual setup. i can't say that the dually would let me tackle anything all that more technical but the fatigue factor is huge. then again if i went up from 100mm travel to 140-60 or something then i'd recon i'd grow a 3rd nad and attack a few different sections. i think if you're as good as the dude in the vid. you could get down there fast on a cyclocross bike or one of those netti wooden jobbies.
while we're on it i have thought about the 29 Ht vs the 100mm dually - and have seen the scott 27.5 doing alright in the world cup type stuff. anyone tried one of those things?